On Existing DNA sample too old, says PM
DR PR: Why must Syed Hamid Albar and the PM coax Anwar Ibrahim to give a blood specimen? What interest do they have in this episode if it is not political? The survival or demise of BN depends on the outcome of this case.
The Mahathir family and the DPM have their worries too. The PM and Syed Hamid have said that Anwar has nothing to fear and foreign experts may obtain the specimen. Either they do not understand or pretend not to understand the fears of DSAI.
To put it bluntly, a blood or serum specimen from DSAI could be introduced by catheter into the rectum of the complainant (or mixed in vitro ie. with Saiful's specimen outside of the body in a test tube) and any sample taken from Saiful will show the presence of Anwar's DNA.
Thus Anwar will be found to guilty of sodomy. Simple. I have two suggestions to get around this problem:
1. Get a foreign DNA expert to obtain a specimen from Saiful, create a DNA profile, seal the results and leave it with the court under security (or should it be double security?).
Subsequently, get Anwar’s specimen and compare his DNA profile with that obtained from Saiful.
2. The other option would be to radio-label Anwar's specimen. If the radio isotope is detectable in Saiful's specimen, then you will know that it has been planted.
Dr Nedu: It was the joke of the century when the PM commented on the DNA. The funny part is he got the facts wrong. When the experts collect blood samples the get the coding, it is translated into a chart which is on permanent record. This record is done once, and that's it.
It is something like profiling a blood test. If you are in the group of A+, then you are forever A+. It is unnecessary to withdraw blood to get the grouping after 10 years or 20 years. The grouping will not change.
Likewise, DNA profiling is permanent. The idea that the current government and police force need to have Anwar's blood for new DNA profiling is illogical.
This simply shows the lack of knowledge among this group of people and to paint bad picture about DSAI refusing to allow blood sample taken from him.
Why is PM getting involved when he said police are independent and that the Umno politicians are not getting involved in the investigation of the so-called sodomy case of DSAI.? Why did he say ‘we’? That shows he is part of the team that accused DSAI of sodomy.
Forget about the sodomy case. Look at other important unsolved cases, like the missing Sharline, Lingam tape, Altantuya murder, missing Bala, and Datuk Johari's cases. etc. After all is said and done, DSAI is the best leader this nation can get. We the rakyat want him as our next PM.
V for Vernon: While scientists the world over have extracted and reliably used DNA from over tens of thousands of years ago, our local saintis kampung in the form of Abdullah Ahmad Badawi says that ten-year-old DNA samples are no good and that they need fresh DNA from Anwar.
Genetic experts should weigh in on the range, by way of confidence intervals for example, on how precise the age of a DNA sample can be pinpointed.
For example, if they have Anwar's DNA from 10 years ago and tried to plant it as evidence, it may clearly be debunked using objective tests that indicate a sample obtained from a time period not corresponding to the time that Saiful says he was sodomised. (i.e., DNA does indeed disintegrate over time, yet does not lose its ability to ‘finger print’ the individual).
On the other hand, fresh DNA might fall within a range of estimates for the time period corresponding to Saiful's allegation.
That may be why the government and the police are increasingly desperate to obtain fresh DNA samples from Anwar, so that if planted, it becomes very uncertain exactly when it was ‘deposited’ into Saiful's posterior, with the actual planting of evidence becoming indistinguishable from the alleged act of depositing semen by way of sodomy.
Concerned Malaysian: I am neither in support of nor against the government but a concerned Malaysian watching this unfortunate sodomy accusation episode.
A question came to my mind - if I am not mistaken, the government already has the data on Anwar's DNA taken in the past. This data can be used by the police to match any DNA taken from the place of offence as described by the accuser.
If the DNA taken from the place of offence matches the data taken in the past then the police would have sufficient evidence to charge Anwar. Why the need for a fresh sample, and the reason that Anwar's DNA sample taken in the past being too old? Too old for what purpose?
Enough Already: Dinosaur DNA can still be analysed after how many millions of years, but Anwar's decade-old DNA sample is too old? For what?
Why not say Anwar's thumb print in his IC is too old? What's the prime minister doing publicly taking sides on an issue under police investigation anyway? Do he have a vested interest in a certain outcome?
Kenneth: In the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 11, it states: Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which they have had all the guarantees necessary for their defence.
In short, it means ‘innocent until proven guilty’. So it's quite a shock for me when our prime minister says ‘If he has not done anything, than provide a sample. Do it. I want to see it. Let's see the result which could prove that he did not do it.’
I might be wrong, but as far as I know, it's not up to us to prove we are innocent, but up to the police and the prosecutor to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the judge.
Smelly Evidence: Why do the police not get international experts to be brought in to examine the DNA evidence of Saiful first before testing it with that of DSAI?
If the government wants to make things transparent, then they should get several independent experts to extract Saiful’s DNA, verify them to make sure that they are all similar before publicly comparing it with the DNA of DSAI.
That way, there will be no doubt if the evidence have been tampered with. I doubt the police or government will agree to this as they are hiding too many facts from the public again. Even Saiful’s police report has not been given to DSAI to date.
GK: When did our PM became a DNA specialist? The experts are telling us that DNA could be preserved for a number of years. What happened to the DNA samples taken in 1998?
Perhaps the BN has finished it up for their fabrication. The whole world knows that DSAI was framed in 1998 and that the current BN is trying to direct Dr Mahathir’s drama again. The police are not releasing their police report, but are hungry for DSAI’s DNA sample.
Mengchai: ‘If he has not done anything, then provide a sample. Do it. I want to see it. Let's see the result which could prove that he did not do it,’ he (Pak Lah) told reporters.
Once bitten twice shy. You have given many assurances, but with your flip-flop decisions, it may change overnight. You may not do it. Can you trust your people? Whatever you say, the rakyat has already lost confidence in you and won’t swallow every word you utter.
Increasing the petrol price didn’t take long, but reducing the tolls will take months. We know you have two years and by then you may have forgotten the development your promised your home state.
Do you think you will be remembered as one of the great PMs of Malaysia?
A Concerned Citizen: I personally feel that this DNA sampling is not necessary, since there is no official police report available to Anwar on what charges he has been indicted on. All this while, we’ve only heard and read the charges in the news and newspaper. Where is the actual report?
Maybe if the police can make this available, then Anwar can go for the DNA sampling. And this must be done under the observation of foreign experts, whom I suggest to handle this case since I don’t trust the police.
Secondly, the police should make Saiful’s report available to Anwar since they don’t have the right to withhold it. Is there any law that can force the police to release this report? If no, Anwar can sue the force for lodging a false report against him and ask the court to drop the case once and for all.
So far with the investigations of this case, we’ve only heard the police and the government pester Anwar to give his DNA. What the heck do they want if they can’t even compel the police to release the police report lodged against Anwar?
Chong Yee Yap: I find it very distressing to read so many comments that keep repeating themselves about Anwar's DNA and all that stuff about the corrupt police and the judiciary.
Yes, I too agree that the police and the judges of the Malaysian courts just cannot be trusted, but nobody has even touched on proof of the evidence of the corruption of police and judges.
We have all been told that Anwar has given the police his alibi. That is enough for the police to begin their investigation, and only if police in the course of their investigation find more incriminating evidence that is not consistent with Anwar's alibi can they ask for another explanation.
This procedure has not been adhered to, therefore it is very timely and correct for the public to be suspicious of the intentions of the police. Anwar is right in not providing his DNA because he is not required to do so on grounds ‘self-incrimination’.
No accused person can be compelled to self-incriminate himself. That is the law and it must be adhered to.
The next point that I want to raise to evidence is the fact that Saiful has confessed to sodomy. He has said that he committed sodomy with Anwar, and that means he is a self-confessed sodomite.
I am not saying that he did, but I am saying is that he has confessed to sodomy and in his confession he has confessed to being an accomplice to the offence. This therefore places the burden on the police and the AG to instantly prosecute Saiful for sodomy.
The conviction of Saiful does not necessarily mean that Anwar participated in the crime because there is no evidence that implicates Anwar. It is for that reason that we can say the police and the AG's office want to frame Anwar with fresh DNA.
Everybody knows that DNA has been kept active for centuries, only our PM does not know that. From my perspective, I believe that Anwar's team ought to consider this approach because that is the law.
Ahmad Fuad: I am a complete greenhorn in this dog-eat-dog world of Malaysian politics.
But when I hear and read of how a squad of ten (or was it fifteen? Whatever lah) public-funded vehicles, loaded with public-funded police in full battle gear (balaclavas and all), I told myself, ‘Ah...there's something more here!
‘It cannot just be about arresting a 61-year-old man who's only weapon that he carries is God-given. I was sure that it was about ‘someone’ setting out to embarrass someone else.’
Thank you, gentlemen. I am now not only convinced, I now also have (and I am sure others out there, too) a very good idea of those behind this satanic scheme: the players, the financiers and all the way up to the ‘producers’.
Thank you, sirs. You made my day.
Andrew Lee: Give Anwar’s accuser a break. He may be waiting for the samples before he continues proper toilet hygiene.
JTB: Anwar went through a harrowing experience in 1998. The Malaysian public are not stupid enough not to see that the manner in which he was arrested was all a set up to treat him like a wanted terrorist.
Did you notice the markings on the jacket of one of the ski masked special force chaps? Team A is written, presumably because they used the best team in the force to apprehend Anwar.
What fresh sample is needed? His DNA has been taken in 1998 and they already have the records of his DNA profile. If I was Anwar, I would not give my blood sample to the police, not after the great set up in the 1998 episode.
We Malaysians feel that there is no need for you to subject yourself to this humiliation anymore. Your refusal to give your blood sample for DNA profiling is now a symbol of your cause to challenge an oppressive regime.
We still remember how the prosecution fixed up the mattress incident. How can we forget Augustine Paul expunging the evidence?
I would like to know about the alleged victim, Saiful, who was sent to the hospital and examined. Was he stripped naked, measured and photographed?
Most Malaysians would like to ask the prime minister, ‘Why is it so difficult for the police to give a copy of the police report made by Saiful to Anwar Ibrahim or his lawyer? Do you not think that Anwar is an interested party in this matter?
Why the secrecy? Have the police now declared that Saiful’s report is now sulit and protected under the ‘Official Secrets Act’? Can the Prime Minister tell Malaysians whether there was a police report made by Saiful or not? We Malaysians have a right to know.
CSI Fan: I don't understand why the police need to get a new DNA specimen from Anwar. The police should already have his DNA profile from 1998 and that can be used to compare with the evidence found in this new case.
Don’t our police save the DNA profiles of convicted sex offenders like Codis in the US? If we don't have such a database, just open the old files.
JKS: If you watch documentaries on Astro, there are so many instances in ‘New Detective,’ ‘Bone Detective,’ ‘Discovery Magazine’ and other programmess where you would have seen than DNA samples (blood, tissue or semen) preserved for years at room temperature in an evidence room, nearly a century in paraffin wax and Alaskan permafrost, and presumably centuries in the freezer under certain natural and artificial preservation methods such as embalming chemicals.
The PM and home minister are faking sincerity, and are made to talk by their home ministry and law enforcement underlings. The tail is wagging the dog. The public can only assume that some rogue underlings need fresh blood to plant as fake evidence.
Nothing else delivers relevant information, exchanges good arguments, sharpens the public debate, and exposes ill-considered and hypocritical arguments as quickly as the mass web media.
Jamilah Wahid: The prime minister's statement that a fresh sample is needed to determine DNA identity only shows his ignorance.
One has to know that the requirement for a fresh sample is only necessary if there is no record of DNA profile of the relevant subject. If there is already a sample in custody (old or new), it does not make any difference if the sole purpose is for the DNA is a profile match.
Even the DNA profile in the record (court records of the previous case) would suffice to make the match. Thousand-year-old dinosaurs are being profiled using traces of fossilised samples. In this event, any out-of-the-way demands for a fresh sample will only create suspicions.
Chuacj: I am writing from the base of common sense as I am no expect in DNA profiling or any medical field. First thing’s first, I am not sure why the police need the fresh DNA from Anwar, as they already have the previous DNA profile in their records.
The police just need to compare the evidence against the old records. The only reason for wanting the fresh DNA is so that they can plant it anywhere they like.
Why are Saiful’s charges not being given to Anwar's lawyer? This proves that the police still haven't decided what to charge him with. I support not giving DNA to the police 100% . I hope more NGO will write in support of this and pressure the police to give Saiful’s report to Anwar.
Also, why does the PM need to give his view on this and say that the sample is too old? Why is he such a busybody in this case? I believe he has better things to do, like setting up the royal commission for the Bala, Lingam and Raja Petra cases, plus the Sabah (illegal immigrant) case.
Stand up like a man and do a man's job.
TJ Lee: I find it embarrassing that our prime minister is speaking, again like an ignoramus.
I find this incessant demand for Anwar's DNA sample most perplexing. As I understand it, the purpose of a DNA sample in a criminal case (say semen, blood, saliva, a skin flake) is for the purpose of DNA finger printing.
Our DNA, like our finger print, is unique to each of us. The likelihood of another person (living or dead) having the same exact DNA as us is extremely, extremely low, except with identical twins.
Now, Anwar's DNA finger print would have been in the police records since 1998/1999, would it not? A DNA sample may get stale, but a DNA finger print does not. I mean, my finger print does not get stale through time, does it?
So what is this talk about stale DNA sample? It is perplexing. If I am Anwar, I would kick up the same fuss. Why the need for the DNA sample if you already have my DNA finger print?
PT Tan: I find Anwar case perplexing.
a. Prime Minister says Anwar must give a DNA sample to clear his name. Strange, I thought the police need to find him guilty. Anwar is innocent until proven otherwise.
b. His previous DNA profile is deemed old - that is why they need a new sample. I know politicians change parties, change colour and change many other things, but a person’s DNA profile is constant from the day of his conception.
Concerned: Many people are uncertain how DNA can be used for manipulation or cheating. Here is one simple way. Suppose Anwar gives his blood and his DNA is tested. The authorities then put away some of it. The rest is used as evidence.
The police could then put Anwar in jail because they can confidently declare that it is the same type of DNA found in Saiful. How can that be? Show proof. Voila, there is the proof. The police take out Anwar's DNA that was put away.
The only way to prevent this from happening is for somebody to stare at the DNA day and night.
Brooklynbridge: Presumably, given its high degree of pleasure, ease of performance, and low expense, sodomy is an act committed with considerable frequency throughout Malaysia, despite being against the law.
How many arrests, prosecutions and convictions have there been for this crime? If the government is as zealous about enforcing the law in all cases, not just with its political enemies, the prisons should be full of sodomites - that is, convicted sodomites.
On Hospital: He was not 'forced' to strip naked
Dr Garuda: The mainstream media is attempting to portray Anwar as a liar in this episode and the director of the Hospital KL has come out with the sterile statement ‘...he was examined by two specialists who adhered to proper clinical procedures during the whole course of examination.
‘At no time was his decency violated.’ But these proper clinical procedures are not explained and have left the public guessing as to who is telling the truth.
There are some basic clinical procedures for examining an alleged sexual offender.
The sexual offender must be anatomically capable to commit the offence. That means his penis must be normal and should not have any deformities which would make him unable to commit the crime.
Physiologically, the alleged offender must be able have maintain an erection sufficiently hard enough for penetration.
Doctors will also look for identifying marks, like moles or scars, which can be identified by the alleged victim.
The anus is examined for the integrity of the anal sphincter. Sometimes swabs are taken from the penis and anal canal for bacteriological analysis.
To carry out the above procedures and tests associated with it, the sexual organs have to be exposed, but it’s done with decorum (if I may use the word).
Normally, the lower part of the body is exposed for these procedures while the upper body is covered with a blanket.
Of course, having someone probing and peering into your nether regions is a degrading experience to say the least, and I can tell you it’s no fun for the examining doctors either.
It’s a job and most doctors are very clinical about it.
Thus, in common language, Anwar was stripped without ‘his decency being violated’ (to use the director’s words).
What was the government looking for when they hauled Anwar in for examination? Specifically, they were going to look at his penis. For sure they will measure the thing.
What can you find on it? It has no finger prints anywhere on it. Are there any? If so, it must be a new medical discovery that will make Malaysians stand out from the rest of the world.
One Malaysia: One just cannot fathom the level the police and those doctors have sunk too.
All in all, this saga has turned Malaysia into the laughing stock of the world. None of the Umno politicians have the decency nor the intelligence expected of them.
Do they think God will not punish them? Already, God had shamed them before the entire world.